Forum Activity for @paul-certo

The reason it sounds off to our ears is because the drones are in D, while the melody is played in C ionian as Ken has it. You can tune to the "dorian" mode, but if you finger the ionian scale that's what you get. A point to remember is this: every mode is available in any tuning, by starting your scale on a different fret. But the drones must be tuned correctly to give you the harmony for that key.

If we start our scale on the open string, we get the mixolydian mode. Always. If that string is tuned to C, we have C mixolydian. To harmonize this, we tune the drones to C and G. If we leave that melody string tuned to C, but begin our scale on the 1st fret, we have the aeolian mode of the key of D. We must now tune our drones to D and A to harmonize this new key and mode. Leaving the melody string at C, and starting our scale at the 2nd fret, we now have the locrian mode of E, and we need to tune our drones to E and B. This continues all the way up the fret board, with each mode in a new key. Drone and chord players alike are bound by this. The mode not only gives us the notes we need for that modal melody, it also gives us the notes used by chord players to harmonize that melody. This is also true for drone players, just not as readily visible. But as we learn to hear, and to trust our ears, we recognize when the harmony is right for the key and mode of the melody. Playing alone, this is dissonant, but try adding a chord player to the mix. If you play this song tuned to DAG, what key do you tell your guitarist buddy to play it? In C or D? If he plays it in C, his chords will sound good against the melody, but will clash terribly with the key of D drones. If he plays it in D, his harmony and yours will work, but the melody will clash with both harmonies. The key of the melody string must match the key of the drones.

Paul

OK, Ken, so you're saying that by tuning the melody string one note lower you're tuning into Dorian mode, which I understand. But playing a tune in an Ionian mode against the drones doesn't make it a Dorian sound. As you said in your first post, the Dorian scale begins on the 4th fret. Thus if a tune is to truly sound Dorian with the melody string tuned down it must (usually, there are exceptions to every rule) resolve to the 4th fret, not the third. Our western ears are accustomed to music using certain chord progressions and resolutions and, like folkfan, I find the sounds as you've given the melody weird. But if I raise everything one fret (melody string still tuned down), then it sounds Dorian.

Ivan, Ken previously wrote that "All Through The Night" was in Ionian. The reason I asked about his fretting was to see if he was working with a different variation of the tune than I was. If so, then how it sounded in Dorian would be different than the version I'm playing. I'd tried my version in Dorian, but I'm so used to playing and singing it in Ionian that I couldn't get it to sound right to me.

A lot of people experiment with different tunings on modal music and come up with interesting sounding tunes. Lisa just did a video of "Go Tell Aunt Roadie" or "The Old Grey Goose" in Dorian. It sounded "Medieval" and not like "The Old Grey Goose" at all. Spooky.

Ken mentions doing the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald in Dorian, my version is in Mixolydian, but I don't use a 1-5-8 tuning for it. My tuning is DGG with the G being played at the open string on the melody. This has a different sound than the more traditional GDg tuning for Mix, but it works for me.

Yes, Ivan, I'm well aware that the melody line and the tune is Ionian. In both Ionian and Dorian Modes the drones are tuned to the same notes - D and A. It's the G tuned melody string which gives the effect Folkfan has noticed. I've never said that this tune is anything but Ionian. I am simply saying that - right, wrong, or indifferent - it can be played with a Dorian Modal tuning. Many Ionian tunes can be played from a Dorian modal tuning to give them a unique and different mood.

Ken, the melody line you give above is for a tune in the Ionian mode. No matter what you tune the melody string to, any scale that begins on the third fret without using the 6+ fret is Ionian. Tuning the drone strings to something else may make for some strange harmonies and may even make the song sound Dorian, but the truth is that the melody you give denotes an Ionian tune.

You play the same fretting positions that I do, but our tunings are different. Going from Ionian to Dorian really hits my ear as wrong and leaves my mind in a muddle . My ears are going "what the heck??? that's all.

Here's the melody line that I worked out.

3..2..1..3 - 4..3..2..0 - 1...2...33 (repeat)

sleep my child - and peace attend thee - all through the night

Guardian angels He will send thee - all through the night

6...5.6.7.8..7..6..5

While the drowsy hours are keeping

6..5..4...3-5..4..3..2

Hill and vale to-gether sleeping

3..3..2..1-3..4..3..2..0 - 1...2...33

I my lo-ving watch am keeping - all through the night.

What fingering are you using for say "All Through The Night". Mine in Ionian goes All/1 Through/2 the/2 night/3. Tuning to Dorian (1-5-3) and using that sounds wrong so how are you transposing it?

All Through the Night may not technically be a Dorian Mode tune, but it sounds pretty neat that way....

http://sniff.numachi.com/lookup.cgi?ds1=C&ds2=C&ds3=F&ti=THRUNITE&tt=THRUNITE&tab=d

Ken, What version of "All Through The Night" do you play? The one I do is basically the same as this one. Doesn't strike me as a minor song. I do "Come O'er The Stream Charlie" and "Cindy" in a major mode too.

Ken, that's a great list of tunes that can be played in Dorian mode, especially since they include some modern tunes too.

Just to round things out, here are a couple of my noter Blog posts that walk beginner's through the Dorian mode, with simple tuning diagram and an easy-level tab for Little Sadie:

http://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2009/11/golly-modes-arent-so-scary-after-all.html

http://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2009/04/little-sadie-in-dorian-mode.html

Lisa's playing of Aunt Rhody in Dorian Mode has brought up interest in one of my favorite Modes.

Dorian is a minor Mode with the 3rd and 7th notes of the scale flatted* and the 6th note of the scale sharped* -- when compared to the major Ionian Mode scale (mi-flat, la-sharp, ti-flat). Dorian is identical to the full minor Aeolian Mode except that the 6th note of the scale is sharped in Dorian but flatted in Aeolian.

Dorian is most commonly heard in Celtic music and early American folk songs derived from Irish melodies. Dorian mode sounds a little melancholy because the final note (re) doesn't quite resolve itself. The song may be over, but the singer is still unsettled.

The Dorian scale starts on the 4th fret and runs to the 11th. Traditionally it was tuned in D -- DAG, but a 1-5-7 tuning will give you Dorian mode in whatever key you choose -- CGF for example or GDC. To get to Dorian mode from Ionian, tune the melody string down -- DAA to DAG for example.

Here's a list, in no particular order,of Dorian tunes that I've compiled over the years. Some of these can also be played in other Modes, and there are tunes like Aunt Rhody which can be given a new interpretation by being played in Dorian. Give it a try!

Clinch Mountain Backstep
What Do We Do With A Drunken Sailor
Star of Munster
Star of County Down
Shady Grove
Cluck Old Hen
In the Pines
Black is the Color of My True Loves Hair
Dear Companion
Little Sadie
Pretty Polly...
Over the River, Charlie
Wedding Dress a.k.a. Little Doney Gal
Bachelor's Hall
Nottamun Town
Over the River Charlie
Drowsey Maggie
Cindy, Cindy
Cripple Creek
Sovay
Swallowtail Jig
Hughie The Graeme
My Little Welsh Home
The Mist Covered Mountains of Home
Motherless Child
All The Pretty Little Horses
All Through the Night

Modern:
Scarborough Fair (Simon & Garfunkle)
Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald (Gordon Lightfoot)
City of New Orleans (Arlo Guthrie)
Night The Lights Went Out In Georgia (Vicki Lawrence/Bobby Russel)
Summertime (Gershwin)

Hymns:
Wondrous Love
Be Thou My Vision a.k.a Banks of the Bann

Rounds:
Hey Ho Nobody Home

Rock:
Moondance (Van Morrison)
Smoke on the Water (Deep Purple)
Light My Fire (The Doors)
Oye Como Va (Carlos Santana)
Eleanor Rigby (Beatles)
Along Comes Mary (Association)
Knockin' on Heaven's Door (Dylan)
This Diamond Ring (Gary Lewis & The Playboys)

** Note that flatted and sharped are not the same as flat and sharp. If the natural note is F# for example and it is flatted, it becomes an F. If F# is sharped it becomes a G.

new Mandolin Player checking in I have been playing about 3 months and love'n it right after get my cheep little mandolin I had a accident and took most of the tip of my first finger off. Now me being the hard head that I am was not going to put it away till I was healed up. I used my three good fingers to start learning to play. Ya got to love two and three finger chords.

If anyone is inserted I do have some links for free tabs. I will gladly share

Hi Bill,

That clip 'Kitchen Sessions 3' is also on the .mp3 player on my home page near the bottom of the list of tunes I have uploaded to my page.

Robin

I used to play dulcimer regularly with a mandolin playera couple of years ago. The two instrumentsgo together well as long as you think about the arangements you are going to use. To get over the 'volume' issue I played in noter drone style and that gave me the punch to keep up with mandolin. I've just had a look through my sound files to see if I had any recordings and I've found one of me on dulcimer in d,d,d,d tuning and Chris on mandola rather than mandolin - We are just jamming around with an old Welsh tune but you'll get the idea of how we arranged for the two instruments:

I use finger picks on the 12 string, and my dulcimers, but bare fingers on nylon stringed guitars, and my banjo. On the steel six strings, I sometimes use finger picks, sometimes not. Depends more on whether Mrs.Wanda is asleep than anything else. I play cleaner with picks on the doubled strings. Is the mandolin neck that thin? With 10 strings crowded in together, the Tiple felt pretty narrow, but I think it was the same width as his two ukulele. The 12 string, on the other hand, has room to land an airplane on the fret board. We learn what we practice, try it and see.

Paul

Paul, I assume you use fingerpicks when you fingerpick a 12-string guitar, correct?

One problem fingerpicking a mandolin is that the strings are so darn close together. The fretboard is more narrow than most soprano ukulele fretboards, for example. The right hand fingers would be really scrunched together. And the strings are really taught, much more so than guitar or ukulele strings (the latter of which are usually nylon as well).

I think it is theoretically possible to fingerpick a mandolin, but it would be pretty difficult in practice. A mandola might be more "doable."

Paul Certo said:

I don't play mandolin, but I finger pick everything else I play, even 12 string guitars, and my friends 8 string uke and 10 string tiple. Tiples have 4 courses tuned like a uke. Two courses are paired strings, and two are tripled strings. I don'r see a reason you couldn't fingerpick a mandolin, but I don't recall seeing anyone do it. Start a new trend.

Paul

I don't play mandolin, but I finger pick everything else I play, even 12 string guitars, and my friends 8 string uke and 10 string tiple. Tiples have 4 courses tuned like a uke. Two courses are paired strings, and two are tripled strings. I don'r see a reason you couldn't fingerpick a mandolin, but I don't recall seeing anyone do it. Start a new trend.

Paul

Nathaniel, I don't know of anyone who fingerpicks the mandolin. Crosspicking is common, but fingerpicking, not. There are several physical impediments to fingerpicking the mandolin: the strings are really close together, the strings are reallytaught, and all the courses have double strings. If it could be done, it would be with metal fingerpicks. But I've never heard ofit.Every style of mandolin that I've heard of involves a flat pick.

Nathaniel Jared Smith said:

Does anyone Fingerpick the mandolin and if so what patterns do you use. I'm knew at the mandolin and I would like to learn a bluegrass style that enables fingerpicking that also brings out the melody more.

A guitar player, I took a detour for a few years and played the mandolin. But that was beforeI discovered the dulcimer. Now when I jam with friends I bring my guitar and a couple of dulcimers, but not usually the mandolin. The main issue with the mandolin, I think, is that it can be very loud, so you have to consciously play softly so as not to drown out the other musicians (don't worry about the fiddle and dobro players, though). I love the mandolin on fiddle tunes, of course, but I also just like to play chords and add short little filler runs every now and then. The rhythmic potential of the mandolin is great, although I can attain almost the same effect with my 6-string baritone dulcimette.

I assume you know the David Schnaufer/Butch Baldassari album Appalachian Mandolin & Dulcimer. If not, you have a big treat waiting for you . . .

I played 2 finger chords (sometimes the wrong chords) on mandolin in the vid below, in an informal jam with 6 dulci players, another mandolin on melody and a guitar on melody every other verse. It's kind of nice to switch out the lead melody player, not only the person but other instruments. 2 finger chords rock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JmFtNOIT56w

http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/group/rockininthefreeworld/forum/topics/ashokan-farewell-jam

Iplayed MandolinuntilI damaged a finger on my left hand that meansI can no longer play 4 finger closed chords (Bluegrass style mandolin adds "percussion" to the ensemble using closed chords when not playing melody). I can still play melody to some extent; tunes range from Bluegrass or Old Time to Scottish or Irish Folk (Iwent to universityin Glasgow in the Folk Revival of the sixties, when I had pretensions to become a banjo player) Nowadays, it's Soldier's Joy to Wha' Saw the 42nd via Doon In The Wee Room, or Over The Waterfall. I now play a guitar bodied bouzouki, tuned GDAE, which I can do 2 fingered (it's amazing how many 2 fingered open chords there are and how effective they can be). Theoretically I play in what you might call a 'Garage band' but we meet on a boat about twice a year, so usually I strum unaccompanied; anything from City of New Orleans to Norwegian Wood, via (Dublin in) The Rare Ould Times, The Gresham Disaster, or Sinking of the Reuben James/Wildwood Flower. I have absolutely no idea where I am going to find folks with whom to join in on dulcimer. I will have to persuade my 'boat band' to play more Joni Mitchell!

As long as they are playing in D. And you are tuned DAD.You can follow along by only freting a single note for each chord. So when they play the A chord you only fret the A note and strum the remaining strings open. You can't go wrong that way... Later on get the guitar player to retune to open D.. or DADF#AD and let him play along with you doing the lead...Bob.

Thanks for the advice! I managed to play along a little on a couple of songs, I let them know I was in the key of D, and they let me know what chords they were using. I also managed to play about four songs, though I messed up on each and every one, I got through them OK. I swear I play them all flawlessly for the cats about a dozen times a week! Funny thing is, when I picked up my dulcimer to practice later, I was all thumbs.

It was a really fun time, so I'll just keep practicing and look for any opportunity to play in front of people.

This helps me (but it may not help you). My brain sort of thinks backwards sometimes. Anyway I recognize a bunch of guitar chords by sight just from watching guitar players play (and I play a bit too). So if I have my banjo or my dulcimer I'm watching the guitars in the room for the chord changes.

Good luck!

Beth,

Knowing I, IV, V chords in the keys of D, G, C will take you far. Listen for the chord changes and key off whoever looks to be the most solid rhythm player.

Have fun!

PS-My guitar-playing husband helped me with this. :)

A friend of mine is hosting a party room at our local Science Fiction & Fantasy Con which includes a music circle. Everyone else will be playing the guitar, and I will be playingmy mountaindulcimer. I do have extra frets, 1 1/2 and 6 1/2, and I know basic chords. And I do have a capo.

Any suggestions on how I can play along?

Quinn, thanks for that link, but I think the one referred to as not working is the one in the original post. Kyle Daniel Mills posted a link to research paper he wrote on C.N. Prichard, but that link no longer works. Back in November I visited CN's grave and place one of the copies I made of his dulcimers on the stone and took a picture. It was a memorable moment.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

I too would like to read this paper, but I got a "file not found" message as well.

Nicholas, here is a link to a portion of Ralp Lee Smith's book, Appalachian Dulcimer Traditions, in which he describes information on CN Prichard who made the Huntington WV dulcimers, http://books.google.com/books?id=AKQ6k9EwD-kC&lpg=PA57&ots=... . I have pictures of the census records Ralph mentions on my page.

Nicholas Rickford Grant said:

The link to this file give me a "file not found" message. Anyone know the current link or how to get a look at the paper? It sounds interesting.

Thanks

Kyle,

Thank you for making your research available online. I've printed off a hard copy so I can read it tonight or tomorrow.

Greg

Kyle,

Hope you're able to put together more pieces of the Prichard; you've got the makings of a thesis.

Gotta tell you what a thrill it was for me to hear you in a jam outside Halliehurst one night. Just not enough noter & drone players jamming in old-time! I'll not be at Spring Week at Augusta--will be making a couple trips to North Carolina for music doings in April & May.

Hey, Kyle, great to see you back here! As you know, I enjoyed reading your paper at Augusta last summer (and hearing you play!) and I look forward to learning more about further research. (It must have taken a fair amount of digging to uncover information about when CN Prichard first came into contact with the dulcimer!)

Thanks for posting this Kyle, very interesting. I always wondered about those 'upside-down' hearts.

For it is written:

He who knows not, knows not

He who knows not that he knows not ...

... is a not knows .......

I'd rather be a "beginner" than an "ender" any day!

I, also, think of myself as a "learner". And I'm always learning about new things that I hadn't, yet, discovered that I didn't know. Ya know?!

Thanks Strumelia, Ive been wondering how I was going to tell when I was no longer a beginner. Now I dont have to worry about it any more, I will always be a beginner. Now its just a matter of to what degree.

I think that we are beginners as long as the amount of what there is yet to learn is larger than what we already know...and that's certainly true for me! And maybe we are all simply 'learners'. May we never stop learning until we die...

We all were beginners once upon a time...

Hi Van

Thanks for the input I'm a beginingplayer and having a great time trying to learn to play. The dogs howl, the cats run and hide and friends dont come by much any more, but I'm having a great time.

I couldnt agree with you more about the people at McSpadden, I've called them a couple of times and they were very helpful. I just wish that they had a dealer in my area.